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he knows that the fbi knows about this. but he doesn't decide to go and tell the white house and offer to resign until clapper tells him to do so. >> more information. thank you so much, pete, for that reporting. more on the politics of the petraeus scandal, if you will. eugene robinson is an associate editor and columnist for "the washington post." also an msnbc political analyst. gene, this sense here -- let me show you something. some are howling about the timing of the resignation. he was set to testify about benghazi. here is ralph peters, an analyst for fox news. this is what i'm talking about, this emerging conspiracy theory, and here it is coming from fox. let's watch. >> as an old intelligence analyst, the way i read it, and i could be totally wrong, this is my interpretation is that the administration was unhappy with petraeus not playing ball 100% on their party line story. i think he was getting cold feet about testifying under oath and their party line story, and i suspect these tough chicago guys knew of this
he knows that the fbi knows about this. but he doesn't decide to go and tell the white house and offer to resign until clapper tells him to do so. >> more information. thank you so much, pete, for that reporting. more on the politics of the petraeus scandal, if you will. eugene robinson is an associate editor and columnist for "the washington post." also an msnbc political analyst. gene, this sense here -- let me show you something. some are howling about the timing of the...
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fbi has uncover between 20,000 and 30,000 documents. mostly e-mails sent between allen and this woman, jill kelley. a senior defense official tells msnbc that the e-mails were inappropriate. kelley was the target of paula broad we'll's e-mails. the associated press that broadwell thought of kelley as a romantic rival for petraeus affection. he was supposed to start the process this week to be the next commander of american forces in europe and supreme allied commander of nato, allen will remain commander in afghanistan. . >>> i don't even know where to begin. how does this happen? >> well, i don't know it happens. particularly in the digital age. the idea that people think that if you have thousands of e-mails that they're not going to be picked up and found out it's sort of amazing. what's most disturbing, this is a terrible time from a foreign policy standpoint to have petraeus out. scandals that are taking key players out of afghanistan, syrian discussions. country that the president has a lot going on right now. >> we were joking co
fbi has uncover between 20,000 and 30,000 documents. mostly e-mails sent between allen and this woman, jill kelley. a senior defense official tells msnbc that the e-mails were inappropriate. kelley was the target of paula broad we'll's e-mails. the associated press that broadwell thought of kelley as a romantic rival for petraeus affection. he was supposed to start the process this week to be the next commander of american forces in europe and supreme allied commander of nato, allen will remain...
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it's the fbi. you dent think they are going to follow up? have you never watched an episode of any show ever? really? >> and really unnamed fbi agent, you became obsessed with a woman while investigating her in an e-mail scandal and then e-mailed her shirtless photos. really? weiner, chris lee, brett favre, it's 2012. it's time to recognize the male physique carries zero allure. stop sending us pictures of it. >> don't you watch "homeland"? that show is this exact story line. i defy you to find one happy character in that whole show. no really. go ahead. >> really? >> really. defend your gender. >> that's pretty good. >> i used to write novels and sometimes i look at things that happen in life and it's like if you put that in a novel. and i was doing magic realism. even in a novel, this would not work. it would not be believable. you can't help but mwonder if a modern shakespeare who would write this novel. i would imagine it would be a combination of e.l. james meets tom clancy and write "50 shades of red october." it would look really cool
it's the fbi. you dent think they are going to follow up? have you never watched an episode of any show ever? really? >> and really unnamed fbi agent, you became obsessed with a woman while investigating her in an e-mail scandal and then e-mailed her shirtless photos. really? weiner, chris lee, brett favre, it's 2012. it's time to recognize the male physique carries zero allure. stop sending us pictures of it. >> don't you watch "homeland"? that show is this exact story...
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remember her fbi friend that started the investigation? turns out he was also the person who called house majority leader eric cantor and told him what he knew. one more character connecting petraeus and allen in this messy web, jill's twin sister natalie, just weeks ago both generals wrote letters in support of natalie in a custody battle over her four-year-old son. "the washington post" is now reporting according to advisers close to petraeus, petraeus only resigned after national intelligence director james clapper told him to do so. joining me now, spencer ackerman, senior writer for "wired" who writes for their national security blog, the danger room, and nbc's richard wolffe. richard, i don't know, i don't know much about waging war. i do know a little bit about living life. and these generals are writing absolutely crazy letters which i don't have time to read to a judge in a custody battle. >> right. >> a woman who has lost custody of her son, and in this country it is not easy for women to lose custody of children in these situati
remember her fbi friend that started the investigation? turns out he was also the person who called house majority leader eric cantor and told him what he knew. one more character connecting petraeus and allen in this messy web, jill's twin sister natalie, just weeks ago both generals wrote letters in support of natalie in a custody battle over her four-year-old son. "the washington post" is now reporting according to advisers close to petraeus, petraeus only resigned after national...
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, the way fbi handled this last -- the last couple days we're being told the fbi just happened to wrap up the case the week before the election. it did the final interviews with david petraeus and paula broadwell. that last week. just a few days before the election and then they wrap up the case and tell james clapper. now, it turns out, the case wasn't quite wrapped up, they still had more additional work to do with the search on paula broadwell's house and they had this additional information about general allen that they felt compelled to alert the white house and the pentagon about so that raises the question why was it just that week of election day they first go to clapper and does it have anything to do with the phone call that eric cantor the house majority leader made to the fbi just a few days before? >> andrea -- if i could just add one point, talking to lawmakers on the hill saying yet again, they're learning about this through media reports and that is only fanning the flames of their frustration which they first started talking about at the end of last week should have be
, the way fbi handled this last -- the last couple days we're being told the fbi just happened to wrap up the case the week before the election. it did the final interviews with david petraeus and paula broadwell. that last week. just a few days before the election and then they wrap up the case and tell james clapper. now, it turns out, the case wasn't quite wrapped up, they still had more additional work to do with the search on paula broadwell's house and they had this additional information...
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edgar hoover and the fbi uncovering personal peck a dill ohs and using them for political game. >>> right now on "first look," new details surrounding the scandal involving two u.s. generals and the women they were involved with. >>> president obama will face the media head on regarding petraeus and allen, as well as the nation's fiscal cliff. >>> and a tragic plane crash kills three pilots on their way to an faa safety conference. well, good morning, everyone. i'm lynn berry. and today for the first time we expect to hear from president obama directly as his administration is rocked by scandals involving two of the men he counted on most, former cia director david petraeus and afghan war commander general john allen. well, the newest headlines in the investigation are creating even more of a tangled web. this morning "the wall street journal" reports general allen, who is now under investigation for e-mails between he and jill kelley of tampa, florida, is telling associates that he received an e-mail traced back to paula broadwell, the petraeus biographer accused of sending harassing e-m
edgar hoover and the fbi uncovering personal peck a dill ohs and using them for political game. >>> right now on "first look," new details surrounding the scandal involving two u.s. generals and the women they were involved with. >>> president obama will face the media head on regarding petraeus and allen, as well as the nation's fiscal cliff. >>> and a tragic plane crash kills three pilots on their way to an faa safety conference. well, good morning,...
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probably decided it was best left to the fbi to do the investigation. no one could have predicted what would have come out of that tip. at first we had what looked like a love triangle and now a love rhombus or parallel gram which moves you on to a love pentagon. i don't think there's any way of knowing what would have been brought by that original tip. it's bringing down some pretty lofty careers. >> what do you think about the tension between the fbi and cia? this would seem to expose some sort of -- i mean we know they're often -- agencies are often in competition with one another or there's tension. this would seem to be exemplary of that, given the fact that the fbi was investigating the head of the cia and some question whether that was appropriate, who knew what, where, when and how? >> it doesn't appear that the fbi attempted to use any of this information as leverage against the cia, which is what you would be concerned about domestic and international spy agencies learning information about each other and using it to leverage each other, to, y
probably decided it was best left to the fbi to do the investigation. no one could have predicted what would have come out of that tip. at first we had what looked like a love triangle and now a love rhombus or parallel gram which moves you on to a love pentagon. i don't think there's any way of knowing what would have been brought by that original tip. it's bringing down some pretty lofty careers. >> what do you think about the tension between the fbi and cia? this would seem to expose...
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months before the fbi was brought on to the case. >> that was nbc's andrea mitchell reporting. some lawmakers are demanding that general petraeus testify at some point about the deadly attack at the u.s. consulate in benghazi which he independently investigated. >>> incumbent senator scott brown of massachusetts who lost to elizabeth warren is calling on his republican party to move to the middle. >> we need to be a larger party. i'm a pro-choice moderate republican, there's a vanishing breed. you know that now. you've lost joe lieberman, richard lugar, kent conrad, me, olympia snowe. that group in the middle, it's vanishing and there are on both sides there are extremes as you all know kind of pushing back against the middle. i've always felt that that group in the middle is, quite frankly, the most powerful group because they're able to get to that 60-vote fleshhold and get things done so i'm hopeful we'll be a more tolerant, you know, open-minded party. >> there is speculation that brown could make another run for national if president obama names senator john kerry to his c
months before the fbi was brought on to the case. >> that was nbc's andrea mitchell reporting. some lawmakers are demanding that general petraeus testify at some point about the deadly attack at the u.s. consulate in benghazi which he independently investigated. >>> incumbent senator scott brown of massachusetts who lost to elizabeth warren is calling on his republican party to move to the middle. >> we need to be a larger party. i'm a pro-choice moderate republican,...
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the fbi us is benned broadwell's security clearance. katie marzullo, abc7 news. >>> breaking news out of the mideast. real fear this afternoon an all-out war between israel and hamas. israeli ground troops massing for what appears to be a ground offensive into the gaza strip that follows hamas' rocket attacks deep into israel some landing in suburban tel aviv. unconfirmed reports of three israel -- israeli casualties. 15 casualties, including civilians following yesterday's air strike that killed hamas' top military commander. >>> meteorologist mike nicco, keeping a close eye on that rain coming our way soon. >> just about five more hours of daylight and dry weather, to get youries finished before the rain when it comes it is going to come in waves and it is going to be here all weekend. we'll try to give you a timetable and how much you are going to get. >>> also, the investigation into whether 5 hour energy drinks are dangerous, even deadly for some. >>> hostess says it is not kidding, why the company is vowing to shutdown in three ho
the fbi us is benned broadwell's security clearance. katie marzullo, abc7 news. >>> breaking news out of the mideast. real fear this afternoon an all-out war between israel and hamas. israeli ground troops massing for what appears to be a ground offensive into the gaza strip that follows hamas' rocket attacks deep into israel some landing in suburban tel aviv. unconfirmed reports of three israel -- israeli casualties. 15 casualties, including civilians following yesterday's air strike...
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the identity of the fbi agent at the enter of the david petraeus scandal is finally revealed. i know you've been waiting. good morning to you. i'm peter alexander. this is "w
the identity of the fbi agent at the enter of the david petraeus scandal is finally revealed. i know you've been waiting. good morning to you. i'm peter alexander. this is "w
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the identity of the fbi agent at the enter of the david petraeus scandal is finally revealed. i know you've been waiting. good morning to you. i'm peter alexander. this is "way too early." i'm glad you're up with us this morning. a lot to cover on a thursday, november 15th
the identity of the fbi agent at the enter of the david petraeus scandal is finally revealed. i know you've been waiting. good morning to you. i'm peter alexander. this is "way too early." i'm glad you're up with us this morning. a lot to cover on a thursday, november 15th
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questions about benghazi, questions about the petraeus thing, how did the fbi, is the president pleased with, seems there's a little pattern here of it seems to take a while for certain information to get to the white house a little bit, how -- what is his reaction to that. so this is his first comments that we're going to hear since the whole david petraeus mess exploded. so obviously that's going to be some of the news. i can tell you the white house folks are not happy that half the press conference will not be about fiscal cliff since that is what is front and center, all these deadlines facing them. the irony is, be andrea, had they done the post-election press conference when traditionally held back in bush and clinton a couple days after the election, there wouldn't have been a question about david petraeus. >> if he had not -- if he held it in chicago the morning after traditionally when this is done. >> or even thursday. >> or even thursday u.s. exactly. >> although by thursday his national security team knew and was about to inform him about the petraeus possible resignation.
questions about benghazi, questions about the petraeus thing, how did the fbi, is the president pleased with, seems there's a little pattern here of it seems to take a while for certain information to get to the white house a little bit, how -- what is his reaction to that. so this is his first comments that we're going to hear since the whole david petraeus mess exploded. so obviously that's going to be some of the news. i can tell you the white house folks are not happy that half the press...
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that's an issue with respect to the fbi. they are apolitical, i have a lot of confidence in director of the fbi, mueller. and they conducted investigations -- i was an investigative prosecutor, they get the facts and the data and the interviews. i can understand from the public's point of view that it looks political. i can understand where people would think that. i can only deal with the facts and data we have and the information i have. as far as i'm concerned, the deputy director came before our committee today, he said it was not political. they gave us a timeline on how they are conduct others the investigation and the investigation is going forwards -- it's really only day 1 on capitol hill, pretty much. >> right. we were out. now we are back in. the chairman of the committee and i, as far as i am sure, senator dianne feinstein and chandliss were briefed. and you talked about -- about gym petraeus, a very sad situation. but it was a serious situation. and you know, the fact that he did resign was penitentiary because
that's an issue with respect to the fbi. they are apolitical, i have a lot of confidence in director of the fbi, mueller. and they conducted investigations -- i was an investigative prosecutor, they get the facts and the data and the interviews. i can understand from the public's point of view that it looks political. i can understand where people would think that. i can only deal with the facts and data we have and the information i have. as far as i'm concerned, the deputy director came...
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not for the fbi. so the fbi still has some explaining to do in my mind. >> eliot: why the distinction if there is a legitimate reason or maybe the facts are different between the way general petraeus has offered his resignation and the president expressing support for general allen. is there a reason for that distinction that you can discern? >> absolutely. first off general allen's behavior flirting -- many things are against the military code of justice but flirting isn't. that being said, i can absolutely understand the secretary's actions where general allen is concerned at this point. the real question -- what's happening is general allen was up, as you said, to take over as nato's supreme allied commander. that's a senate-confirmed position. any time that there is an investigation, regardless of whether it has any merit or not that investigation is always concluded before you put somebody in front of the senate committee for them to go ahead and confirm or not confirm the person. so in this case
not for the fbi. so the fbi still has some explaining to do in my mind. >> eliot: why the distinction if there is a legitimate reason or maybe the facts are different between the way general petraeus has offered his resignation and the president expressing support for general allen. is there a reason for that distinction that you can discern? >> absolutely. first off general allen's behavior flirting -- many things are against the military code of justice but flirting isn't. that...
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the fbi us is benned broadwell's security clearance. katie marzullo, abc7 news. >>> breaking news out of the mideast. real fear this afternoon an all-out war between israel and hamas. israeli ground troops massing for what appears to be a ground offensive into the gaza strip that follows hamas' rocket attacks deep into israel some landing in suburban tel aviv. unconfirmed reports of three israel -- israeli casualties. 15 casualties, including civilians following yesterday's air strike that killed hamas' top military commander. >>> meteorologist mike nicco, keeping a close eye on that rain coming our way soon. >> just about five more hours of daylight and dry weather to get youries finished before the rain when it comes it is going to come in waves and it is going to be here all weekend. we'll try to give you a timetable and how much you are going to get. >>> also, the investigation into whether 5 hour energy drinks are dangerous, even deadly for some. >>> hostess says it is not kidding, why the company is [ female announcer ] this is a
the fbi us is benned broadwell's security clearance. katie marzullo, abc7 news. >>> breaking news out of the mideast. real fear this afternoon an all-out war between israel and hamas. israeli ground troops massing for what appears to be a ground offensive into the gaza strip that follows hamas' rocket attacks deep into israel some landing in suburban tel aviv. unconfirmed reports of three israel -- israeli casualties. 15 casualties, including civilians following yesterday's air strike...
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then there's the fbi agent and friend of jill kel yae's. he's now subject of an internal fbi probe himself for inappropriate behavior. let's get into the details. overnight the pentagon announced this, that general allen's nomination to be allied supreme commander over all of anywnato been delayed and panetta has asked them to ex pa diet joseph dunfer. >> while this matter is under investigation and before the facts are determined, general allen will remain commander. general allen is entitled to due process in this matter. in the meantime the secretary has asked the president, and the president has agreed, to put his nomination on hold until the relevant facts are determined. >> all right. that's pentagon spokesman george little. he's on a trip to asia with the defense secretary. more on that trip in a minute. allen, who is married, denied any wrongdoing and, for now, remains commander in afghanistan as the investigation continues. defense secretary leon panetta was informed by the pentagon's general counsel on sunday of this fbi investiga
then there's the fbi agent and friend of jill kel yae's. he's now subject of an internal fbi probe himself for inappropriate behavior. let's get into the details. overnight the pentagon announced this, that general allen's nomination to be allied supreme commander over all of anywnato been delayed and panetta has asked them to ex pa diet joseph dunfer. >> while this matter is under investigation and before the facts are determined, general allen will remain commander. general allen is...
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everything from his initial reaction to how this was handled by the fbi. so first to the point of his initial reaction, if you take white house press secretary jay carney's briefing yesterday as a guide that gives you a sense that president obama will likely talk about that fact that he was stunned. he'll likely also thank general petraeus for his service to the country and also express his continued support of general allen while this investigation is ongoing. in terms of this other big question that lawmakers have been talking about quite a bit, this question of when president obama was informed about the entire situation, i think that you will hear president obama essentially defer those questions to the fbi. essentially not question the fbi's handling of this situation. that is what i expect. anyway, thomas, based on carney's briefing that we heard yesterday. this is such a stunning situation, because, remember, this is the last thing that president obama was expecting to talk about during his first press conference, what he intended to be focusing on,
everything from his initial reaction to how this was handled by the fbi. so first to the point of his initial reaction, if you take white house press secretary jay carney's briefing yesterday as a guide that gives you a sense that president obama will likely talk about that fact that he was stunned. he'll likely also thank general petraeus for his service to the country and also express his continued support of general allen while this investigation is ongoing. in terms of this other big...
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a further look by the fbi into kelly's e-mails revealed hundreds between kelly and allen. 20,000 to 30,000 pages of communication in all. secretary of defense leon panetta put general allen's promotion to nato supreme commander on hold and ordered a full investigation of the allen/kelly relationship. >> today, the secretary directed the matter be referred to the inspector general of the department of defense for investigation. >> reporter: jill kelly spent the day at her home in tampa not answering questions. in the background, a television could be seen with news coverage of the payton place like military sex scandal that focused attention on who she and is how she end up in the admit of it all. the license plate on kelly's mercedes-benz, shows she is honorary counsel for south korea. in 911 phone calls, kelly told the dispatcher she deserved protection from the media us because of that. >> i am an honorary consul general, they should not be able to profit, i don't know if you want to get diplomatic protection involved as well. but that's against the law to cross my property since it's in
a further look by the fbi into kelly's e-mails revealed hundreds between kelly and allen. 20,000 to 30,000 pages of communication in all. secretary of defense leon panetta put general allen's promotion to nato supreme commander on hold and ordered a full investigation of the allen/kelly relationship. >> today, the secretary directed the matter be referred to the inspector general of the department of defense for investigation. >> reporter: jill kelly spent the day at her home in...
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to the fbi she communicates with a friend who she meets at a fbi commune a event. hey do you remember me, we were in touch can you look at somebody to look at this. he brings her to the cyber squd and they say where is this going to lead not knowing it was going of going to lead to the general's and so on. that's who jill kelly in the context of this case. who she is in the larger world is a tampa socialite married to a prominent although much lower profile and quiet radiologist from the moffett cancer center who was in the military community. she was on the social roster, she was on the socom that's special operations command social roster. she jumped with the parajumpers in a tan done jump. she attended the admiral's parties and affairs and so on. that's who she is in that context. >> rose: so she went to the cyber whatever the name was and then they began to look at her e-mails and who she received e-mails from and from that they found e-mails having to do with general john allen. >> right one of the ways you do a case, all right let's see who is sending the har
to the fbi she communicates with a friend who she meets at a fbi commune a event. hey do you remember me, we were in touch can you look at somebody to look at this. he brings her to the cyber squd and they say where is this going to lead not knowing it was going of going to lead to the general's and so on. that's who jill kelly in the context of this case. who she is in the larger world is a tampa socialite married to a prominent although much lower profile and quiet radiologist from the...
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fbi investiiation...//.craig boswell... has... more... on the new ddvel. developmentt. general ohn allen.."tte""top u.s. commander in afghanistan...is now under investigation for "allegee" iiappropriate commmnications pith the woman at the cennerr of the petraeus sex ssandal. the pentagon saas tte thousands of emails with jill says sheereceived threatening pmails from general avii petraaus's mistress - paula broadwell. those emails led to the orginial fbi investigationnthat uncoveree the xtramariial affaii little says: "while thiss matter is under invvssigation and before the facts are remain commander oo isaf." - petraaus resiined friday nddttere are questions about the actual timiig and lenggh of his afghanistan that could pen up him to prosecution under militarr law.panetta says: "we obviously are going to watch this closely to deterrinn just eeactly wwen that took place." defense ecretary leon panntta replaced generrl petraeus when he took over the cia. phornberry says: "this thhng gets even more biiarre and we aae all ocusee on the personal interactionssbut there a
fbi investiiation...//.craig boswell... has... more... on the new ddvel. developmentt. general ohn allen.."tte""top u.s. commander in afghanistan...is now under investigation for "allegee" iiappropriate commmnications pith the woman at the cennerr of the petraeus sex ssandal. the pentagon saas tte thousands of emails with jill says sheereceived threatening pmails from general avii petraaus's mistress - paula broadwell. those emails led to the orginial fbi...
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months before the fbi was brought on to the case. the white house is backing general allen, officials say his nomination to nato could be derailed, if hen cat get past the controversy of being swept up in the scandal. >> andrea mitchell starting us off from washington tonight. >>> jill kelley's name has come up in connection with two of this nation's top commanders. more on her story tonight from kristen welker. >> how are you doing? >> jill kelley was well known in social circles around tampa, long before she became fodder for the tabloids in new york. she and her husband threw lavish parties at their bayshore home. black tie, top notch catering, a couple about town. >> jill is always smiling, vivacious. >> reporter: aaron publishes tampa bay magazine, that had the kelley's frequenting the pages. >> there was always a bevy of people surrounding them. it seemed like no matter where they went, people enjoyed talking to them, being with them. >> reporter: and they were often seen hobnobbing with top military brass, including david petr
months before the fbi was brought on to the case. the white house is backing general allen, officials say his nomination to nato could be derailed, if hen cat get past the controversy of being swept up in the scandal. >> andrea mitchell starting us off from washington tonight. >>> jill kelley's name has come up in connection with two of this nation's top commanders. more on her story tonight from kristen welker. >> how are you doing? >> jill kelley was well known in...
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. >> the fbi notified the department sunday. monday the defense secretary leon panetta ordered an investigation into the man with one of the most high-profile military jobs. >> general john allen, a top commander in afghanistan, is now under investigation for sending in appropriate e-mails to the woman who triggered the resignation of david patreaus. fbi agents left early this warning with files, boxes, and a computer. the search comes after the fbi discovered thousands of e-mails between roswell and patreaus. >> i am sure both of them look back and realize they both made the biggest mistake of their life. >> it is now that the investigation that has the fbi facing scrutiny. lawmakers want to know why there were not told about the probe months ago when the investigation began. the fbi called it a preliminary investigation. that really caused them to take it all the way through. >> allen was nominated back and neck over by president obama. that nomination now on hold. he will remain in his post in afghanistan. >> think you. the s
. >> the fbi notified the department sunday. monday the defense secretary leon panetta ordered an investigation into the man with one of the most high-profile military jobs. >> general john allen, a top commander in afghanistan, is now under investigation for sending in appropriate e-mails to the woman who triggered the resignation of david patreaus. fbi agents left early this warning with files, boxes, and a computer. the search comes after the fbi discovered thousands of e-mails...
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sure, 's been a tough few days for general allen since the fbi probe implicated him. some defensive issues with the pentagon told us that these e- mails were flirtatious and we've been turned over to the inspector general. they came from the fbi and the implication is there was no suggestion of any criminal conduct, but you might have some uniform code of military justice violations like conduct unbecoming of an officer or service discrediting or adultery. these are all crimes under the military code before you make it sound as though allen could be in danger of more than just losing his promotion. he could be in the same kind of trouble as four-star general petraeus. >> perhaps more so herself because he's still an active duty officer and subject to the uniform code of military justice. so i think based on my conversations with the pentagon today, that is where the investigation is leading at this point. >> a lot of people are wondering whether or not this is just a one off, an out liar or is this -- outlier or a window into what goes on all the time in the military
sure, 's been a tough few days for general allen since the fbi probe implicated him. some defensive issues with the pentagon told us that these e- mails were flirtatious and we've been turned over to the inspector general. they came from the fbi and the implication is there was no suggestion of any criminal conduct, but you might have some uniform code of military justice violations like conduct unbecoming of an officer or service discrediting or adultery. these are all crimes under the...